Best Jet fighter sim?

[GIAM]

Hi,

I'm looking to get back into simming again. Particularly combat sims,
I used to Play the original IL-2 Sturmovik a bit and I loved the
realism (especially the physics). Reading here I see that it has been
tweaked a bit so I'll probably grab that. I have a new rig now for the
first time in years so would like to push it. I am looking at the new
WWI sim Rise of Flight which looks ace ('scuse the pun). But I'd love
the modern equivalent of Lock On, which I never actually had but
looked amazing. Is there a modern jet sim or is Lock On still the
standard? It's a bit old now, if IIRC it came out not long after IL-2.

Cheers,

Gordy.

[GaryR]

If your looking for pretty graphics I can't help but IMO Falcon 4
Allied Force is still the best sim out there for it's truly dynamic
campaign and great online play.

G

Post by GIAM
Hi,
I'm looking to get back into simming again. Particularly combat sims,
I used to Play the original IL-2 Sturmovik a bit and I loved the
realism (especially the physics). Reading here I see that it has been
tweaked a bit so I'll probably grab that. I have a new rig now for the
first time in years so would like to push it. I am looking at the new
WWI sim Rise of Flight which looks ace ('scuse the pun). But I'd love
the modern equivalent of Lock On, which I never actually had but
looked amazing. Is there a modern jet sim or is Lock On still the
standard? It's a bit old now, if IIRC it came out not long after IL-2.
Cheers,
Gordy.

[Georgina]

On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 00:45:00 -0700 (PDT), GIAM

Post by GIAM
Hi,
I'm looking to get back into simming again. Particularly combat sims,
I used to Play the original IL-2 Sturmovik a bit and I loved the
realism (especially the physics). Reading here I see that it has been
tweaked a bit so I'll probably grab that. I have a new rig now for the
first time in years so would like to push it. I am looking at the new
WWI sim Rise of Flight which looks ace ('scuse the pun). But I'd love
the modern equivalent of Lock On, which I never actually had but
looked amazing. Is there a modern jet sim or is Lock On still the
standard? It's a bit old now, if IIRC it came out not long after IL-2.
Cheers,
Gordy.

Black Shark heli sim is ED`s latest and it is very high fidelity, they
are releasing an A-10 add-on for it soon so that would be your best
bet for a modern hardcore sim to get. Apart from that the only other
military jet sims that have been done are all mid level survery sims
done by Thirdwire. SF2:Vietnam is fairly good if you go to
combatace.com and download some mods for it.

http://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/

http://www.thirdwire.com/

[GIAM]

Post by Georgina
On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 00:45:00 -0700 (PDT), GIAM

Post by GIAM
Hi,
I'm looking to get back into simming again. Particularly combat sims,
I used to Play the original IL-2 Sturmovik a bit and I loved the
realism (especially the physics). Reading here I see that it has been
tweaked a bit so I'll probably grab that. I have a new rig now for the
first time in years so would like to push it. I am looking at the new
WWI sim Rise of Flight which looks ace ('scuse the pun). But I'd love
the modern equivalent of Lock On, which I never actually had but
looked amazing. Is there a modern jet sim or is Lock On still the
standard? It's a bit old now, if IIRC it came out not long after IL-2.
Cheers,
Gordy.

Black Shark heli sim is ED`s latest and it is very high fidelity, they
are releasing an  A-10 add-on for it soon so that would be your best
bet for a modern hardcore sim to get. Apart from that the only other
military jet sims that have been done are all mid level survery sims
done by Thirdwire. SF2:Vietnam is fairly good if you go to
combatace.com and download some mods for it.
http://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/
http://www.thirdwire.com/

Thanks guys, I'll take a look at the heli sim. Not too keen on F4,
seemed to be a bugfest the last time around (admittedly years ago...).

Cheers,

Gordy.

[Darren]

Post by GIAM
Thanks guys, I'll take a look at the heli sim. Not too keen on F4,
seemed to be a bugfest the last time around (admittedly years ago...).
Cheers,
Gordy.

F4 isn't F4 anymore. It's "Falcon 4 Allied Force" and it's virtually bug
free. It was a
badly bug infested piece of disappointing doodoo when it was Hasbro's baby
but
it's pretty damned good now. Your really ought to revisit it.

[Nats]

Post by Darren

Post by GIAM
Thanks guys, I'll take a look at the heli sim. Not too keen on F4,
seemed to be a bugfest the last time around (admittedly years ago...).
Cheers,
Gordy.

F4 isn't F4 anymore. It's "Falcon 4 Allied Force" and it's virtually bug
free. It was a
badly bug infested piece of disappointing doodoo when it was Hasbro's baby
but
it's pretty damned good now. Your really ought to revisit it.

I disagree the graphics were far better when F4 was free and there were
loads of planes to fly as well. I felt that F4 AF was a backward step with
no graphics improvement and the tiled scenery now looks really dated - true
there is improved scenery available but you have to pay for it. Considering
theere are absolutely no jet fighter sims around it could be the only
choice - gaming is very sad these days Elite 4 is the only thing that could
be coming out that I am even remotely looking forward to.

[Eric Von Zipper]

Post by Nats
I disagree the graphics were far better when F4 was free and there were
loads of planes to fly as well.

It`s still free. Look up Free Falcon 5.0.

[Angus]

Post by Eric Von Zipper

Post by Nats
I disagree the graphics were far better when F4 was free and there were
loads of planes to fly as well.

It`s still free. Look up Free Falcon 5.0.

Sorry guys, could somebody clear this up - I've occasionally seen a
Falcon 4 Allied Force (I think) in the shops for about 25 pounds. What
is it that's free, and is it as good?

many thanks.

[Eric Von Zipper]

On Tue, 29 Sep 2009 20:13:06 +0100, Angus

Post by Angus
Sorry guys, could somebody clear this up - I've occasionally seen a
Falcon 4 Allied Force (I think) in the shops for about 25 pounds. What
is it that's free, and is it as good?
many thanks.

http://www.freefalcon.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14498

psst, they say you need to a copy of Falcon 4.0 to install it but you
don't realy. Not that it matters to me as I have 2 copies of Falcon
4.0 and 1 of Falcon 4.0:AF but when I installed Free Falcon 5.0 it
installed into it's won folder as a complete game. Whether it is
better than AF or not is a matter of opinion.

[GaryR]

I did the same thing, have F4:AF loaded also, no issues as of yet.
Haven't really tried FF5 yet but I assume you can fly any plane and
use Ayes(sp?) cockpits in it, yes? That was one of the things I missed
in F4:AF..

GR

Post by Eric Von Zipper
http://www.freefalcon.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14498
psst, they say you need to a copy of Falcon 4.0 to install it but you
don't realy. Not that it matters to me as I have 2 copies of Falcon
4.0 and 1 of Falcon 4.0:AF but when I installed Free Falcon 5.0 it
installed into it's won folder as a complete game. Whether it is
better than AF or not is a matter of opinion.

[McKenna]

Post by GaryR
I did the same thing, have F4:AF loaded also, no issues as of yet.
Haven't really tried FF5 yet but I assume you can fly any plane and
use Ayes(sp?) cockpits in it, yes? That was one of the things I missed
in F4:AF..

I believe so, yes.

[Graham Thurlwell]

Post by Angus

Post by Eric Von Zipper

Post by Nats
I disagree the graphics were far better when F4 was free and there were
loads of planes to fly as well.

It`s still free. Look up Free Falcon 5.0.

Sorry guys, could somebody clear this up - I've occasionally seen a
Falcon 4 Allied Force (I think) in the shops for about 25 pounds. What
is it that's free, and is it as good?

I bought F4AF /and/ IL2 Sturmovik 1946 for a total of £25 at Game in
March 2007 on one of their 'Two for' deals. I haven't got round to
playing F4AF yet but reckon that I've got more than my £25's worth
from IL2 so consider F4AF as effectively free. ;-)

[Antonio López de Santa Anna]

Post by Graham Thurlwell
I bought F4AF /and/ IL2 Sturmovik 1946 for a total of £25 at Game in
March 2007 on one of their 'Two for' deals. I haven't got round to
playing F4AF yet but reckon that I've got more than my £25's worth
from IL2 so consider F4AF as effectively free. ;-)

You can buy IL2 1946 for $9.99 now as digi8tal dowload via either Steam
or gog.com. gog.com is the preferred source as there is no DRM and no
client needed to run it.

[GaryR]

You are missing out on the finest, most complex jet sim ever created
IMO. Campaign - Fully dynamic with several theatres to fight in.
Online - Excellent net code, play a whole dynamic campaign with your
friends or just do dogfights or quick missions (that you can build or
DL). Plan on spending some time learing it and don't waste your time
on "easy mode" and it will supply thousands of hours of intense fun.

GR

Post by Graham Thurlwell
I bought F4AF /and/ IL2 Sturmovik 1946 for a total of £25 at Game in
March 2007 on one of their 'Two for' deals. I haven't got round to
playing F4AF yet but reckon that I've got more than my £25's worth
from IL2 so consider F4AF as effectively free. ;-)

[rob]

"Nats" wrote ...

Post by Nats
I disagree the graphics were far better when F4 was free and there were
loads of planes to fly as well. I felt that F4 AF was a backward step with
no graphics improvement and the tiled scenery now looks really dated -
true there is improved scenery available but you have to pay for it.
Considering theere are absolutely no jet fighter sims around it could be
the only choice - gaming is very sad these days Elite 4 is the only thing
that could be coming out that I am even remotely looking forward to.

The graphics may be poorer but where F4AF really stands out for me is that
its bug free, I cant even remember the last time I had a CTD with it and its
an excellent common base for MP

[GaryR]

It's a bitch. F4:AF is the best retail release you will ever see of
the Falcon 4.0 Gilman Louie visualized 20+ years ago. They patched it
and AFAIK it's done. You want to fly F4 online, it's most likely the
best you will get stability-wise. The "development" continues. I am
flying Free Falcon 5.3 at the moment. Fly any plane, use Aeyes
cockpits, and enjoy a lot of very realistic improvements. There is
also Open Falcon, which has its points (I never tried it). I like
flying the A10 and F15, along with the F18 and F16 varients. FF 5.3 is
excellent, has its bus, but as someone that started with Falcon 3.0
and had it not work out of the box.. I have a lot of patience with my
expectaions..

GR

Post by Nats
I disagree the graphics were far better when F4 was free and there were
loads of planes to fly as well. I felt that F4 AF was a backward step with
no graphics improvement and the tiled scenery now looks really dated - true
there is improved scenery available but you have to pay for it. Considering
theere are absolutely no jet fighter sims around it could be the only
choice - gaming is very sad these days Elite 4 is the only thing that could
be coming out that I am even remotely looking forward to.

[Scatter]

Post by Darren
F4 isn't F4 anymore. It's "Falcon 4 Allied Force" and it's virtually bug
free. It was a
badly bug infested piece of disappointing doodoo when it was Hasbro's baby
but
it's pretty damned good now. Your really ought to revisit it.

I must be the only person on the planet who prefers 1.08 to all the
"community mod" stuff (a lot of which went into allied force).

The original's gameplay scaled much better with sliders for everything
and it's my belief that scaling gameplay (not just a "simple versus
complex mode" for avionics and flight model) is required for sims to
recover some of their lost market. I was lucky to be into flight sims
during the 80's and early 90's and sort of pine for the variety and
quality of the many sims released then.

[Nats]

Post by Scatter

Post by Darren
F4 isn't F4 anymore. It's "Falcon 4 Allied Force" and it's virtually bug
free. It was a
badly bug infested piece of disappointing doodoo when it was Hasbro's baby
but
it's pretty damned good now. Your really ought to revisit it.

I must be the only person on the planet who prefers 1.08 to all the
"community mod" stuff (a lot of which went into allied force).
The original's gameplay scaled much better with sliders for everything
and it's my belief that scaling gameplay (not just a "simple versus
complex mode" for avionics and flight model) is required for sims to
recover some of their lost market. I was lucky to be into flight sims
during the 80's and early 90's and sort of pine for the variety and
quality of the many sims released then.

At the moment it has to be ARMA 2 which is the best tank, infantry, plane
and helicopter sim all rolled up into one:

[GaryR]

ARMA2 is a flight sim? And as a tank sim compares to Steel Beasts? As
an infantry sim, does it still have the AI that can see through trees
a mile away? And for Helo, it compares to Black Shark?
You're kidding, yes?

GP

Post by Nats
At the moment it has to be ARMA 2 which is the best tank, infantry, plane
http://youtu.be/5zhS4DuML5Q
http://youtu.be/pU_wNNGOYGQ

[Nats]

Post by GaryR
ARMA2 is a flight sim? And as a tank sim compares to Steel Beasts? As
an infantry sim, does it still have the AI that can see through trees
a mile away? And for Helo, it compares to Black Shark?
You're kidding, yes?
GP

Post by Nats
At the moment it has to be ARMA 2 which is the best tank, infantry, plane
http://youtu.be/5zhS4DuML5Q
http://youtu.be/pU_wNNGOYGQ

Well I am a flight simmer and a tank simmer and I love it. Best game I've
played for ages. Yes F4 was good but far too complicated and Ive played it
to death. Steel Beasts - looks rubbish. Helo sim? No not really. Its more of
a light simulator than a truly detailed one admittedly but it plays really
well, its really atmospheric, you can create you own missions really quickly
which is far more fun than it sounds - and its good fun. Most of the sims
above just arent 'fun'. PC games have lost the fun element lately - this
helps address the balance somewhat.

[GaryR]

A simulator, while it may be fun, is by description and design meant
to simulate the real life experience. For many of us Falcon 4 for
jets, Black Shark for helos, Steal Beasts Pro Personal for tanks, and
America's Army for Infantry are fun because we want a fairly RL
experience. Having a game say "GO - 4 - TO - ENEMY - SOLDIER -
MACHINGUNNER" just doesn't do it for me. Can the ARMA2 Game be fun?
Sure. Is it in any way shape or form a flight sim (As this NG IS
.flight-sim)... No. Not even close.

Enjoy it, not knocking it for what it is, but a sim it's not.

GP

Post by Nats
Well I am a flight simmer and a tank simmer and I love it. Best game I've
played for ages. Yes F4 was good but far too complicated and Ive played it
to death. Steel Beasts - looks rubbish. Helo sim? No not really. Its more of
a light simulator than a truly detailed one admittedly but it plays really
well, its really atmospheric, you can create you own missions really quickly
which is far more fun than it sounds - and its good fun. Most of the sims
above just arent 'fun'. PC games have lost the fun element lately - this
helps address the balance somewhat.

[Nats]

Post by GaryR
A simulator, while it may be fun, is by description and design meant
to simulate the real life experience. For many of us Falcon 4 for
jets, Black Shark for helos, Steal Beasts Pro Personal for tanks, and
America's Army for Infantry are fun because we want a fairly RL
experience. Having a game say "GO - 4 - TO - ENEMY - SOLDIER -
MACHINGUNNER" just doesn't do it for me. Can the ARMA2 Game be fun?
Sure. Is it in any way shape or form a flight sim (As this NG IS
.flight-sim)... No. Not even close.
Enjoy it, not knocking it for what it is, but a sim it's not.

AMRA2 is still a simulation just not to the detail of some others. So what
was EF2000 then? Because that game didnt simulate the real plane in fact
much of it was made up. So when does a game become a simulation in your
book? When its so complex that its no longer any fun such as Falcon 4? When
you have to take a whole evening to play one mission such as B17? And so how
do you know Balck Shark is a simulation - have you actually flown one of
those helicopters? How do you know it isnt all made up particularly the
flight dynamics. And so is BOB a flight sim? Because I have a lot of doubts
about how accurate that game is at simulating Spitfires etc. The fact is
ARMA2 does a pretty good impression at depicting tanks, planes and
helicopters not to mention infantry warfare. Just because you dont like it
doesnt make it any less of a simulation. I have certainly played many
simualtion that were less accurate than many of the features depicted in
ARMA2 - M1Tank Platoon for example but it didnt make them any less of a
simulation. I think the game is pure brilliance.

[Scatter]

Post by Nats
AMRA2 is still a simulation just not to the detail of some others. So what
was EF2000 then? Because that game didnt simulate the real plane in fact
much of it was made up.

From memory, Digital Image Design created a bombing simulator for the
Ef2000 for the RAF so at least some systems were (loosely) based on reality.

As for ArmA being a flight sim - the helos don't exactly follow the
laws of physics which is a pity (one of our squad members is an ex
army pilot who goes on about it a bit). As a combat simulator though
it's rather special. Has anyone given the new Operation Flashpoint a
good go yet?. The lack of a dedicated server and large scale co-op
(seems to only have 4 player co-op at the moment) has made me a little
reticent to pay full price at release.

[GaryR]

You can go on and on and on but I already named what are, IMO, fairly
realistic, detailed "simulators". AMRA series is what it is, a fun
game. Sheesh, M1 Tank Platoon??? Innane arguments like these are the
reason I stopped wasteing my time with this place. You come here and
in a post about the best "Best Jet Fighter Sim" blather on about
AMRA2.. Right.

Post by Nats
AMRA2 is still a simulation just not to the detail of some others. So what
was EF2000 then? Because that game didnt simulate the real plane in fact
much of it was made up. So when does a game become a simulation in your
book? When its so complex that its no longer any fun such as Falcon 4? When
you have to take a whole evening to play one mission such as B17? And so how
do you know Balck Shark is a simulation - have you actually flown one of
those helicopters? How do you know it isnt all made up particularly the
flight dynamics. And so is BOB a flight sim? Because I have a lot of doubts
about how accurate that game is at simulating Spitfires etc. The fact is
ARMA2 does a pretty good impression at depicting tanks, planes and
helicopters not to mention infantry warfare. Just because you dont like it
doesnt make it any less of a simulation. I have certainly played many
simualtion that were less accurate than many of the features depicted in
ARMA2 - M1Tank Platoon for example but it didnt make them any less of a
simulation. I think the game is pure brilliance.

[Andrew MacPherson]

Innane arguments like these are the reason I stopped wasteing
my time with this place. You come here and in a post about the
best "Best Jet Fighter Sim" blather on about AMRA2.. Right.

It could be argued that what killed this group is the same thing that killed this
genre... intolerance and inflexibility. Both suck the life and enjoyment out of any
hobby.

But then that's the human race for you, always looking for an excuse to disagree
with each other. :->

Andrew McP

[GaryR]

Andrew, I simply don't agree......... :D

Post by Andrew MacPherson

Innane arguments like these are the reason I stopped wasteing
my time with this place. You come here and in a post about the
best "Best Jet Fighter Sim" blather on about AMRA2.. Right.

It could be argued that what killed this group is the same thing that killed this
genre... intolerance and inflexibility. Both suck the life and enjoyment out of any
hobby.
But then that's the human race for you, always looking for an excuse to disagree
with each other. :->
Andrew McP

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Post by Andrew MacPherson

Innane arguments like these are the reason I stopped wasteing
my time with this place. You come here and in a post about the
best "Best Jet Fighter Sim" blather on about AMRA2.. Right.

It could be argued that what killed this group is the same thing that killed this
genre... intolerance and inflexibility. Both suck the life and enjoyment out of any
hobby.

IMHO what killed the genre and group was when Buzz passed away...
He was a good guy. I jsut check the TM web site. Holy cow I had no
idea they seem to be only french now.

[GaryR]

That's what "killed" Thrustmaster. This group was killed by mommy's
all over the world allowing their spoiled adolecents use of a new
informational tunnel called the internet. As soon as newsgroups became
mainstream it was inevitable. I miss the times using Compuserve for
NG, Pine to get email and UNIX to play Confirmed Kill...

You know what they say, once "Anybody" can do it it is crap..

Post by The Central Scrutinizer
IMHO what killed the genre and group was when Buzz passed away...
He was a good guy. I jsut check the TM web site. Holy cow I had no
idea they seem to be only french now.

[Andrew MacPherson]

Post by GaryR
You know what they say, once "Anybody" can do it it is crap..

This we can definitely agree on.

Andrew McP

[Angus]

Post by Andrew MacPherson

Post by GaryR
You know what they say, once "Anybody" can do it it is crap..

This we can definitely agree on.

But maybe you've come full circle now, and lost the weekend flight-
simmers, and have just a hard core of serious folk.

Suddenly you're back to being the cult enthusiasts that you once were.

Personally I think it all went pear-shaped when DID released F-29 on the
Amiga. :)

[Nats]

Post by Angus

Post by Andrew MacPherson

Post by GaryR
You know what they say, once "Anybody" can do it it is crap..

This we can definitely agree on.

But maybe you've come full circle now, and lost the weekend flight-
simmers, and have just a hard core of serious folk.
Suddenly you're back to being the cult enthusiasts that you once were.
Personally I think it all went pear-shaped when DID released F-29 on the
Amiga. :)

And thats when I switch off; I have no intention arguing with hard core
flight simmers. You lot seem to be the most arrogant of people I have had
the displeasure to deal with. When all you have left are people who turn
your little noses up at those of us who have enjoyed and loved sims such as
EF2000, Tornado, M1 Tank Platoon, Gunship 2000 and the like, all of which
have been brilliant games from the past and have to be considered as direct
anscestors of the few very limited over the top simulators that are left
(non of whch are worth playing in my view) - thats when I truly know the
flight sim genre is as dead as a door nail. And then you slag off DID one of
the best sim houses around from the past! What a joke.

Enjoy your newsgroup you losers. Hope it continues to die a death without
me.

[Angus]

In article <hck4l2$ctr$***@adenine.netfront.net>, ***@homecall.co.uk
says...

Post by Nats

Post by Angus

Post by Andrew MacPherson

Post by GaryR
You know what they say, once "Anybody" can do it it is crap..

This we can definitely agree on.

But maybe you've come full circle now, and lost the weekend flight-
simmers, and have just a hard core of serious folk.
Suddenly you're back to being the cult enthusiasts that you once were.
Personally I think it all went pear-shaped when DID released F-29 on the
Amiga. :)

And thats when I switch off; I have no intention arguing with hard core
flight simmers. You lot seem to be the most arrogant of people I have had
the displeasure to deal with. When all you have left are people who turn
your little noses up at those of us who have enjoyed and loved sims such as
EF2000, Tornado, M1 Tank Platoon, Gunship 2000 and the like, all of which
have been brilliant games from the past and have to be considered as direct
anscestors of the few very limited over the top simulators that are left
(non of whch are worth playing in my view) - thats when I truly know the
flight sim genre is as dead as a door nail. And then you slag off DID one of
the best sim houses around from the past! What a joke.
Enjoy your newsgroup you losers. Hope it continues to die a death without
me.

Erm, right-ho then.

The thing is, I think M1 and Gunship 2000 were brilliant games.

Don't take my word for it, read my review:

http://www.angusm.demon.co.uk/AGDB/DBM1/M1TP3.html

But sorry, if you think DID`s F29 was a quality product, then you didn't
play it - certainly not on the Amiga.

[Elmer Fudd]

Post by Angus
But sorry, if you think DID`s F29 was a quality product, then you didn't
play it - certainly not on the Amiga.

And he's forgetting that DID ripped us off on F22/TAW. The DID assholes
tell us that TAW will be an add-on to the crap ten mission F22 full
price game they released and after we all buy the crap F22 they turn
around and charge us full price for TAW and was a standalone game. My
opinion of DID after that scam dropped through the floor but I still
bought TAW anyway and gave them my money because F22 without TAW was
truly crap.

[Nats]

Post by Elmer Fudd

Post by Angus
But sorry, if you think DID`s F29 was a quality product, then you didn't
play it - certainly not on the Amiga.

And he's forgetting that DID ripped us off on F22/TAW. The DID assholes
tell us that TAW will be an add-on to the crap ten mission F22 full price
game they released and after we all buy the crap F22 they turn around and
charge us full price for TAW and was a standalone game. My opinion of DID
after that scam dropped through the floor but I still bought TAW anyway
and gave them my money because F22 without TAW was truly crap.

That will be the same as the ten odd missions you got with Lockon Modern Air
combat then? Not that I bought that rip off. The fact is DiD released a semi
finished game but then they made it a billion times better by adding a semi
dynamic campaign and several campaigns that I played for years, they needed
to recoup some money to enable more development of the product. Have I
played a game like TAW lately? have I heck. Most games these days last a few
hours at best. Theres no denying the times when Tornado, Silent Service,
TAW, Wing Commander etc were around were the high water mark of PC gaming,
or any kind of gaming for that matter. Its all been down a steep hill since
then. Yes when DiD release F22 it was the start of the end for flight sims
but I will always have a fond place in my memory for EF2000 and TAW which
were two of the best ever PC Games made.

It really makes me laugh when a game like Call of Duty Modern Warfare 2 can
come out and be the best selling game in history and yet the reviews on
Amazon are truly shocking - I mean six hours to complete the game and no
servers for the multiplayer - it really says a lot about the state of the
gaming market these days. This is why I buy very few games these days. If
anyone actually releases a decent playable space or flight sim in the next
few years I will probably die of pleasant surprise.

[Daffy Duck]

Post by Nats
That will be the same as the ten odd missions you got with Lockon Modern
Air combat then? Not that I bought that rip off.

That's a lie. LOMAC comes with multiple campaigns and multiple single
missions. Also FC was releaseed for it as an add-on and you are
forgetting that LOMAC includes an editor to make campaigns or single
missions, unlike DiD's F22 crap, LOMAC is very good value for the dollar.

[Scatter]

Post by Nats
the displeasure to deal with. When all you have left are people who turn
your little noses up at those of us who have enjoyed and loved sims such as
EF2000, Tornado, M1 Tank Platoon, Gunship 2000 and the like, all of which
have been brilliant games from the past

I certainly enjoyed all of those sims (and many others) in the past and
wish for a good "mid range" sim with good gameplay rather than an
emphasis on button pushing, modelling, and flying "scenarios". There's
nothing wrong with hardcore (I fly Black Shark with a virtual squad)
but it'd be great to have something that attracts a wider audience
(but isn't arcadey). I'd also put in a requirement for a good co-op
mode with join-in-play similar to F4.

The old microprose games were great as they were very scalable (not
just complex versus simple). Even Falcon 4 allowed you to scale many
difficulty aspects - not just turn them on and off. The later
community patches and f4af unfortunately dropped quite a few of those
options. I suspect that a multiplayer mid-range experience would
require a sim without a "hardcore mode" as that's what tends to be on
servers if it's available.

[GaryR]

I agree. The problem I always had getting people to fly F4 online was
they were so darn scared of the complexity, but you can have a great
time with it, even in realistic mode, just using the systems you need
and know. I've never learned 1/5 of what is available in that sim, yet
I can fly campaigns on full realism and survive, even win the war!

Longbow 2? GREAT sim for it's day, wish I could still play it...

GR

Post by Scatter
I certainly enjoyed all of those sims (and many others) in the past and
wish for a good "mid range" sim with good gameplay rather than an
emphasis on button pushing, modelling, and flying "scenarios". There's
nothing wrong with hardcore (I fly Black Shark with a virtual squad)
but it'd be great to have something that attracts a wider audience
(but isn't arcadey). I'd also put in a requirement for a good co-op
mode with join-in-play similar to F4.
The old microprose games were great as they were very scalable (not
just complex versus simple). Even Falcon 4 allowed you to scale many
difficulty aspects - not just turn them on and off. The later
community patches and f4af unfortunately dropped quite a few of those
options. I suspect that a multiplayer mid-range experience would
require a sim without a "hardcore mode" as that's what tends to be on
servers if it's available.

[Sunny]

Post by GaryR
I agree. The problem I always had getting people to fly F4 online was
they were so darn scared of the complexity, but you can have a great
time with it, even in realistic mode, just using the systems you need
and know. I've never learned 1/5 of what is available in that sim, yet
I can fly campaigns on full realism and survive, even win the war!
Longbow 2? GREAT sim for it's day, wish I could still play it...
GR

I still do (and Longbow Gold) on my Win98SE puter with a V5 Voodoo agp
card :-)

[GaryR]

I actually have a system I saved with a PIII 800, VooDoo 5, and
Windows ME with Saitek X36 - Longbow II and Falcon 4 1.08 installed..
I keep it as a museum piece, wish I could use it more...

Post by Sunny

Post by GaryR
I agree. The problem I always had getting people to fly F4 online was
they were so darn scared of the complexity, but you can have a great
time with it, even in realistic mode, just using the systems you need
and know. I've never learned 1/5 of what is available in that sim, yet
I can fly campaigns on full realism and survive, even win the war!
Longbow 2? GREAT sim for it's day, wish I could still play it...
GR

I still do (and Longbow Gold) on my Win98SE puter with a V5 Voodoo agp
card :-)

[Elmer Fudd]

Post by GaryR
Longbow 2? GREAT sim for it's day, wish I could still play it...

You still can, even on Win7. Go to simhq.com for instructions.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Well I did some research and goy a new TM HOTAS for my PC3 and
bought IL-2 Sturmovik for the PS3 so we will see :-) Both got great
reviews.
--

Post by GaryR
That's what "killed" Thrustmaster. This group was killed by mommy's
all over the world allowing their spoiled adolecents use of a new
informational tunnel called the internet. As soon as newsgroups became
mainstream it was inevitable. I miss the times using Compuserve for
NG, Pine to get email and UNIX to play Confirmed Kill...
You know what they say, once "Anybody" can do it it is crap..

On Sat, 31 Oct 2009 20:33:36 -0500, "The Central Scrutinizer"
IMHO what killed the genre and group was when Buzz passed away...
He was a good guy. I jsut check the TM web site. Holy cow I had no
idea they seem to be only french now.

[Elmer Fudd]

Post by The Central Scrutinizer
Well I did some research and goy a new TM HOTAS for my PC3 and
bought IL-2 Sturmovik for the PS3 so we will see :-) Both got great
reviews.

You arcade weeny, console reviewers give glowing reviews to games that
on the PC would get an average review at best.

[Elmer Fudd]

Post by GaryR
You know what they say, once "Anybody" can do it it is crap..

I've never heard them say that, you elitist snob. Me thinks it's time to
call out the 'Assholes of the Universe' President and Vice-President and
beat you around the head with a big stick.

[rochrist]

Post by Nats

Post by GaryR
ARMA2 is a flight sim? And as a tank sim compares to Steel Beasts? As
an infantry sim, does it still have the AI that can see through trees
a mile away? And for Helo, it compares to Black Shark?
You're kidding, yes?
GP

Post by Nats
At the moment it has to be ARMA 2 which is the best tank, infantry, plane
http://youtu.be/5zhS4DuML5Q
http://youtu.be/pU_wNNGOYGQ

Well I am a flight simmer and a tank simmer and I love it. Best game
I've played for ages. Yes F4 was good but far too complicated and Ive
played it to death. Steel Beasts - looks rubbish.

So you don't actually care if its a good simulation then....

[Scatter]

Post by Nats
At the moment it has to be ARMA 2 which is the best tank, infantry, plane
http://youtu.be/5zhS4DuML5Q
http://youtu.be/pU_wNNGOYGQ

Both ArmA and ArmA2 are quite good fun. I spent so much time in
multiplayer ArmA that it's not funny. Don't look at me funny, there
weren't any sims of note at the time.